Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: What is the Flagler Estates Road Dept. thinking?  (Read 9297 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
76 diesel
New Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 9


View Profile
« on: May 01, 2008, 12:36:23 PM »

I wonder what the decision makers of the Flagler Estates Road Department  are  thinking?  You just finished paving Crotty Ave. but you stopped at Cedar Ford yet Baylor and Ebert you paved all the way to Palatka Blvd.  Have you driven on Crotty from Cedar Ford to Palatka Blvd.?  This section of road is terrible, my 4 cylinder front wheel drive car has gotten stuck 3 times over the years in this section.  When its dry the sand is so soft the ruts will suck you into the ditch, I've seen a 4x4 pickup go into the ditch after losing control.  Now you grade the soft stuff off this section trying to get to the hard pack but you are leaving a ridge along the sides so during heavy rain the road floods.  I don't understand why you didn't pave Crotty Ave. up to Palatka Blvd like you did on the others.  This section of Crotty Ave. is the forgotten area of Flagler Estates, even mosquito control skips us when fogging but for some reason we are not forgotten during tax time.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2008, 10:19:59 AM by flaglerestates.com » Report to moderator   Logged
grover
Very Active Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 300



View Profile
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2008, 08:21:33 PM »

Good point but also think about all the other roads throughout F.E that are this bad or worse. Yes it's a good point to bring it up on here,but going to the meetings and VOTING (not saying that you don't do both) and make a valid point is the way to go!
Report to moderator   Logged

To Organize is to Destroy
money8
Very Active Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 468


View Profile WWW
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2008, 06:03:28 AM »

 At last nights road dept. meeting there was a lot of talk about more paving,but no results,except that the board will have to increase your assessment this upcoming year.
 There were two residents present,and when the proposed increase was announced,I all most had a heard attack.
  I understand that all government agencies are looking for ways to obtain more revenue,but this was out of the world.
  They (the board)must curtail its cost's in these times of tax reform and belt tightening.
  At the next meeting the board WILL set the assessment for next year,you the landowners must attend this meeting,your input and suggestions are needed and welcome, you must get involved in our local government or the board will do what they deem necessary.
  COME TO THE MEETINGS SAY WHATS ON YOUR MIND OR DON'T COMPLANE!!!!!!
     Bill Fisher (candidate for the board)
Report to moderator   Logged

 
76 diesel
New Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 9


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2008, 12:58:41 PM »

You can go to the meeting and voice your opinions, complaints, suggestions, or whatever you want but the sad fact is they are going to do as they please!  That is the reason no one shows up because people know that, so why waste valuable time, its just the way it is.    The other sad fact is, the more money they take from us and the bigger the department grows then the more funds they will waste, want, and take!  Its an endless cycle. 

My only point was, why pave Crotty and stop at Cedar Ford but the others like Baylor they pave all the way to Palatka Blvd. is it because Flagler Estates employees or Flagler Estates retired employees live on those other sections? Hey! I don't know I'm just asking? 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2008, 07:43:35 PM by 76 diesel » Report to moderator   Logged
mkelter
New Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 46


View Profile WWW
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2008, 09:06:19 AM »

Diesel,

You hit half the nail on the head in your first post on this thread.  You stated:

"Have you driven on Crotty from Cedar Ford to Palatka Blvd.?  This section of road is terrible, my 4 cylinder front wheel drive car has gotten stuck 3 times over the years in this section.  When its dry the sand is so soft the ruts will suck you into the ditch. . ."

That segment of road has degraded tremendously over the past several years to the point that necessary services such as mosquito control and school bus transportation cannot use the road any longer.  There are many road segments in FE that are degrading to that condition.  The District staff and Board of Supervisors has been warning of this for over five years as more people move to FE and more heavy traffic wears out the grass roads and dirt roads.

The ongoing degradation of roads and drainage conditions will not slow down just because we are in a recession.  Decisions made by the legislature and by the voters of Florida regarding property tax reform and portabilty of homestead exemptions will increase the number of people who choose to move to Flagler Estates, which will cause more roads to fail.  When the roads and drainage fail, they not only fail for the last person who moves to FE.  They fail for everybody who lives in FE.

I am glad we're discussing this issue.  I told the landowners last year that this will need to be discussed this year.  It will either affect your assessment, or it will affect your ability to travel on roads and whether or not your homes flood.

Here are a couple of things to keep in mind during the discussion:

1.  THE ROADS AND DRAINAGE SYSTEM BELONG TO THE LANDOWNERS

Like it or not, you own the roads and drainage system in FE.  The developer, who subdivided and sold the land you are living on, did not do a very good job of building a sustainable infrastructure.  The  developer dumped the responsibility for completing the infrastructure on you.  The Road & Water Control District was set up to get this done. 

The County does not own or maintain the roads and drainage system.  The County will not, most likely, ever agree to take over the road and drainage system in its current state.  If the County does agree to take over the roads and drainage system, they will, most likely, set up a separate tax to charge you for paving the roads and fixing the drainage.  The District has been innovative and very cost-efficient in delivering infrastructure improvements.  The costs for the District making improvements has been less than what it would cost the County for similar improvements.

If you don't like what it costs you in your assessments to get the job done, I don't believe you will like the County's costs any better!

When the District plans road improvements, we make a "best estimate" of where the roads need to go based on the conditions of the roads, the number of new homes, and the traffic patterns that support new vehicle trips.  We especially consider heavy vehicles, such as school busses, that place heavy wear-and-tear on roads.  It takes years to plan, permit, and finance road improvements.  Once a plan is in place, it is almost impossible to change the plan because the permit requirements are specific to each road segment.  If our analysis does not cover every road that needs improvements, then we catch those roads on the next phase of paving.  Our current plan was to get 75% of all residential lots within 1/4-mile of a paved road segment.  Our next plan needs to get 100% of all residential lots within 1/4 mile of a paved road AND to begin to fix dirt roads that are failing.

If we are missing something in our planning, we need to hear from you.  WE DON'T READ MINDS.  You own these roads.  You're participation in the decision-making process is important.

2.  PAY ME NOW OR PAY ME LATER

The cost of road and drainage construction has increased many times faster than the household cost of living.  Construction costs are more closely tied to the cost of fuel, asphalt, concrete, steel and insurance than is the Consumer Price Index.  As long as the Chinese are driving up the cost of fuel, asphalt, concrete, and steel on the global market, the costs of new roads and drainage improvements will continue to escalate.  Over the past several years, the construction cost indexes have been increasing at a rate of nearly 15% per year, while the consumer price indexes have been increasing at a rate of less than 6%.

A road and drainage project that costs you $100,000 this year will cost you $115,000 next year and will cost $132,250 if you delay the project two years.  If you delay the project five years, the price of the project will more than double, if the current rate of construction costs increases continues.  If your household wages increase at the current Consumer Price Index for the next five years, you will only see a 40% increase in wages.  This means that you will be losing even more money from your household budget by delaying improvements to the road and drainage system that you own.

Delaying projects does not mean that the need for the projects go away.  Five years of intensive capital improvements undertaken by the District cannot correct the deficiencies in the infrastructure left by the developers of FE.  The majority of the deficiencies still exist and will only magnify themselves as more people develop and move onto the land that they have already purchased.

3.  THE BOARD OF SUPERVISORS HAS DELAYED SIGNIFICANT INCREASES IN COSTS TO THE LANDOWNERS

Over the past five years, a large amount of improvements has been done to the FE infrastructure that has not increased the assessment.  Nearly $6 million in capital improvements has been completed using CRA TIF money.  Nearly $500,000 of improvements has been completed using money owed to the District by Flagler County.  The landowners of FE have benefited.  Those pots of money are drying out, and cannot be counted on in the future to pay for the costs of capital improvements.

4.  YOU HAVE A CHOICE

Nobody is telling you that you have to make all the improvements now.  My engineering reports (which are required by State Law) only inform the landowners (who I work for) what they need to do to maintain a quality of life and to be compliant with state and federal mandates.  I am required to tell you what I think it will cost you to meet these standards.

I also try to provide alternative approaches that predict the consequences of not making recommended improvements. 

One alternative is that you don't have to make the improvements recommended in my reports.  This is the "Do nothing" alternative.  The consequences are more 4x4 vehicles losing control and falling into deep ditches.  Another consequence is more flooding during large rain events.  The District (you) also faces the prospect of serious fines for not meeting stormwater pollution reduction requirements mandated by state and federal law.  The bottom line is that your assessment will not increase.

Another alternative is to slow down the number of road and drainage improvement projects.   The consequences are fewer traffic safety problems and less flooding than the "do nothing" alternative.  You will also reduce the risk of serious fines for not meeting state or federal pollution-control mandates, but this is not guaranteed.  The bottom line is that your costs will be much greater in future years than it would be if you followed the recommendations in the engineering report.  At the end of a five-year period, your assessment could be in excess of $402 per acre (based on a continued increase in the Construction Cost Index).

The final alternative is to follow the recommendations in the engineering reports.  The consequences are fewer traffic safety risks and even less flooding than the "slow down" alternative, and no risk of serious fines for violating state and federal pollution-reduction mandates.  The bottom line consequence is that your assessment will increase by $126 per acre.

Through your elected Board of Supervisors, you have a choice that needs to be made.  Its your roads.  Its your drainage.  Its your homes.  Its your money. 

The Board of Supervisors has been elected by you to make thoughtful decisions on this matter.  They cannot read minds. 

If Flagler Estates was a corporation, you (the landowners) would be the shareholders and the Board of Supervisors would be the Board of Directors.  Good corporations succeed when the stockholders are involved in decision-making.  Money8 is right.  Speak your mind, or hold your peace.

Mike Kelter, P.E.
mkelter@bellsouth.net


« Last Edit: May 04, 2008, 09:10:02 AM by mkelter » Report to moderator   Logged

 
pleeman
Senior Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 502


Flagler Estates-Country living with modern safety


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2008, 04:27:34 PM »

I got a mind that wants to speak!

1. So are you saying I will be assessed $126 MORE a year for five years?

2. And my roads will be better?

3. Most important to me is - The creek won't flood? When? Can I get my money back if it does?

I sure wish whoever wants to be on the Board would address this because this is the first step in making F.E.
a viable community. One quarter mile from a paved road? I don't think a fire truck will make it to you on a rainy night.
Or police for that matter.

And if you you have a lake around your home because of flooding... well you saw what happened during Katrina.
 Sad Cry Angry

Report to moderator   Logged
money8
Very Active Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 468


View Profile WWW
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2008, 08:21:12 PM »

 Angry >:(Pleeman,I think the road and water control district,has some responsibility when the creek floods but there job is to get the water form our homes to the creek and they do this fairly well. But the U.S.Army Corps. of Engineers has the responsibility for the creek, if they would clean it out all the way to the river,and dredge to it's original depth,we would not flood as bad as now in a heavy,extended period of rain.nor would Hastings Yea the same agency that was in charge of the dikes at New Orleans,(scary thought).How ever they are just as broke as we are,they must use there funding in the garden spot of the mid east.Our rep in washington is Dan Mica,we need to flood his office with E-Mails,phone calls,letters,etc.
  Flood control would a priority if I am seated on the board.
     Bill Fisher
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 08:28:30 PM by money8 » Report to moderator   Logged

 
mkelter
New Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 46


View Profile WWW
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2008, 10:37:01 PM »

 Cool  Pleeman,

I believe I mentioned "road and drainage" ten times in my previous posting in this thread.  I also discussed drainage efforts being made by the District Board of Supervisors numerous times in "Water Control District Update" which was posted on this site on 26 April 2008.  The Public Hearing on the Water Control Plan is a major portion of Annual Landowner's meeting.  The Water Control Plan establishes the strategy for solving a very  complicated drainage problem that has plagued FE for decades.  Money8 is correct.  The problem involves many agencies of government.  FERWCD is leading the effort to correct the problem.  FERWCD will have a share in the cost, since erosion of dirt roads has caused part of the problem. 

If you would like a copy of the Flagler Estates Water Control Plan, please e-mail me your address and I will send you a CD copy.

I am glad that you mentioned "Katrina".   As you are well aware, the real catastrophe in New Orleans occurred because local and Federal officials were too cheap to fix a problem with the levees, which had been identified as a problem years prior to the hurricane.

Mike Kelter  Grin
mkelter@bellsouth.net
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 10:41:49 PM by mkelter » Report to moderator   Logged

 
money8
Very Active Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 468


View Profile WWW
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2008, 07:52:56 AM »

Pleeman, I do not think that most of the home owners know that when it rains,a tremendes amont of drainage comes into our system from the tree farms,and the local agriculture farms,and at this time they pay little or nothing to help maintaine the drainage system. The water just pours on to Amos when it rains.
   I still believe that the U.S.Army could aleveate a the major cause of flooding out here,by cleaning out Deep Creek.
   At one time the creek was a viable waterway,and commerical fishing area,and it needs to be restored,maybe the Serria Club or some other tree hugger organization could help.
  There has to be some options that need to be explored.
    Bill Fisher
Report to moderator   Logged

 
WaltSmith
Very Active Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 338


View Profile WWW
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2008, 10:12:39 AM »

I finally got to drive down that section of Crotty, yesterday afternoon.
Didn't get stuck or even drive off the road, into the ditch.
Of course, I was driving about 20-25  MPH.
But I did notice the ATV tracks, spinning donuts and curves, that dosen't help!
Palatka Blvd is getting bad, but with no rain in sight, it'll get worse.
We'll see what improvments we can afford this year and go from there.
There may not be many....Walt
Report to moderator   Logged

 
mkelter
New Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 46


View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2008, 08:30:17 PM »

 Cool Interesting things happened today!

THE COUNTY-WIDE STORMWATER MASTER STUDY

I met today with Alan Foley, who is an engineer with Jones-Edmunds and Associates, Inc (JEA).   JEA is performing the master drainage study for St. Johns County.  I had my first glimpse of the progress of the study and the stormwater model, and was very impressed with the effort.   The results of the model seem to provide independent verification of what I have been saying for the past six years:  FE will not start to solve its drainage problem until the Ashley Outfall issue is resolved.

The model produced by JEA seems to be accurate.  Recall that T.S. Gabrielle was the equivalent of a 10-year storm, but flooded FE the same as a 500-year storm.  The JEA model confirms this, showing a theoretical flood pattern similar to what we saw during T.S. Gabrielle in 2001.

If the JEA model is accurate, we need to be very afraid.  I saw the model results for the 100-year and the 25-year events.  Those storms (which are overdue) will be devastating if the District fails to act.

You might remember that the District began action to fix the Ashley Outfall with a grant from FEMA in 2003.  The funding for that project fell through because the project could not be permitted in its proposed form.  The huge amount of flows into FE, and the lack of a stormwater treatment system, compromised the ability of the District to obtain the necessary permits for the project.  The costs of adding stormwater treatment was greater than the District could afford at the time.  Regulating the flows of stormwater into the District was not politically feasible.

Since that time, the Board of Supervisors has expanded the scope of the Ashley Outfall Project to include regional stormwater treatment.  The project is now called the Sixteen Mile Creek Stormwater Treatment Facility, and includes many of the components that we planned for the Ashley Outfall Project.  The full project cost is steep:  nearly $11 million.  The first phase, which includes the Ashley Outfall improvements, a small, 20-acre treatment pond, and a stormwater pumping station costs $2 million, excluding land acquistion. SJRWMD was proposing to purchase the land, and still might make the land purchase if the District continues to show an interest in making improvements (such as road paving, erosion reduction, and stormwater treatment).

If the District sends a message that they don't want to spend money to fix the problem, SJRWMD will go elsewhere with their money.

As far as flows into the District is concerned, the Board of Supervisors has positioned themselves well to begin a process of entering into contractual agreements with adjoining landowners to help pay for stormwater flows that enter the District system.  That is the type of flow regulation we need to make improvements to the Ashley Outfall viable.

I should mention that the FE residents need to be thankful to the St. Johns County Engineering Department for putting Flagler Estates Drainage first on the long list of issues that need to be studied.  This is a very expensive effort that will benefit the landowners at no cost to their assessment.  Many other areas of the County could have been given priority.  I believe the current Board of Supervisors got the District to the head of the list by showing a mature approach to the problems we face, which include owning up to our collective responsibilities for cleaning up the mess that we partially created.

 Grin LEGISLATIVE ASSISTANCE

I was surprised to hear that, today, the governors office called the FERWCD office to enquire about the Sixteen Mile Creek project.  As I have reported, the District applied for a $1M legislative grant in December.  I really didn't think that our project would survive the budget cuts during the legislative session.  However, when the governor's office calls about a project, it sometimes means that money was appropriated in the legislative process. 

 Smiley We certainly hope that it means something good for FE.  Smiley

The downside is that this money is not free and not without strings attached.  If we get $1M, the District must match that amount with $1M.  If we get $100,000, the District must match that amount with $100,000.  In order to get paid, we have to complete the project.  As I mentioned, at a minimum phase 1 of the project will cost $2M, which amounts to a $40 increase in your assessment for the next 20 years.

 Embarrassed A COMMENT ABOUT COMMENTS ABOUT THE US ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS  Embarrassed

I am reading a lot of comments about how the US Army Corps of Engineers (USACE) has responsibility to clean up Deep Creek.  That is not correct.  USACE regulates Deep Creek under the Rivers and Harbors Act.  USACE participates in Ecosystem Restorations and Snag and Clear Opertations whenever funding is available.  However, they are under no more obligation to clean the creek than your mother is obliged to clean your room after you mess it up. 

When we were meeting with USACE to discuss Ecosystem Restoration, one comment jumped out at me:  USACE will not participate in creek cleanup operations until the upstream users (and we are one of the upstream users) get their act together to prevent the runoff of sediments and nutrients that clogged the creek to begin with.  Paving roads, placing huge amounts of rip-rap bags around culvert crossings, constructing Sixteen Mile Creek SWTF, implementing right-of-way rules, and doing roadside cleanups are all intended to send a message that we are serious about keeping Deep Creek clean. 

We want Federal money to come back to Deep Creek.  The County, FE, and Hastings Drainage District cannot afford to clean this up on their own.  The day will come when the Feds want to help again.  We want to be ready to jump at that opportunity.  Grin

Mike Kelter
mkelter@bellsouth.net






Report to moderator   Logged

 
money8
Very Active Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 468


View Profile WWW
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2008, 06:44:36 AM »

 Huh Mike, If the U.S.A.C.E. is not ultimately responsable for the creek what bureaucratic agency is? The buck has to stop someplace.
       Surely the homeowners in F.E. are not the cause of 25-30 years of neglect! Most of us have been here on a average of 10-12 years, It took longer than that to get in the condition it's in.
      The Hastings water control district is a joke,(needs to be GONE),as are most of the other agencies that attempt to extort funds from the tax payers.
      There are just too many hoops to jump thru in a attempt to improve any thing the people would like to see . And it is only going to get worse if the Hildabeast,or that non flag wearing,undercover terrorist gets put in the white house!
      Oh my, I have let my emotions and personal feelings take over,so I will put my soap box away for now,but won't let any dust collect on it .Bill Fisher
Report to moderator   Logged

 
pleeman
Senior Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 502


Flagler Estates-Country living with modern safety


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2008, 11:23:44 AM »

Thanks for the great reply Mike.

I am for the $40 assessment for 20 years. That is $800 that could prevent my home from being a TOTAL LOSS!

We have to face the fact that its time to PAY UP or SHUT UP! Open your wallet or close your mouth.

We MUST have Phase 1! Otherwise this community is driving on bald tires!

Question: Can't the other people who flow water through the creek pay this too and lower our assessment?

How will this issue be addressed at the landowners meeting?

Will the candidates be able to speak on this or any other issue?

I would vote for whoever can explain to me how this will be paid- because if it is not we are building sandcastles out here!

I for one am still FED UP! (Flagler Estates Drainage Ultimate Priority)

 Shocked Sad Angry
Report to moderator   Logged
largent45
New Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 15


View Profile WWW
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2008, 09:31:01 PM »

So Mike? Your email replies make it sound oh so much like a lost cause. Keep patching the problems at an exorbitant cost, and maybe one day fix them right at a even more exorbitant cost? And then, one medium sized hurricane and bye bye improvements and back to square one? Mike you have an idea of what it would cost say over a 2 year period to pave every mile of road in FE? How much per acre would the approximate cost be? Not for FERWCD to do it, but if FERWCD were to go away how much would it cost? Thanks Mike. You deserve a raise, but can't have one.  Wink
Report to moderator   Logged

mark
76 diesel
New Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 9


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2008, 05:44:32 PM »

I finally got to drive down that section of Crotty, yesterday afternoon.
Didn't get stuck or even drive off the road, into the ditch.
Of course, I was driving about 20-25  MPH.
But I did notice the ATV tracks, spinning donuts and curves, that dosen't help!
Palatka Blvd is getting bad, but with no rain in sight, it'll get worse.
We'll see what improvments we can afford this year and go from there.
There may not be many....Walt

Of course you didn't get stuck or drive off the road, the grader recently scraped the soft stuff off.   Try driving through during heavy rain at night and hit that dirt ridge left on the shoulder by the grader and you just might end up in the ditch even at 10 mph.   Its an easy out to blame the ATV's for everything, my question is as stated before, why didn't they pave crotty to platka blvd as they did ebert, baylor and others?
Report to moderator   Logged
mkelter
New Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 46


View Profile WWW
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2008, 09:10:46 AM »

So Mike? Your email replies make it sound oh so much like a lost cause. Keep patching the problems at an exorbitant cost, and maybe one day fix them right at a even more exorbitant cost? And then, one medium sized hurricane and bye bye improvements and back to square one? Mike you have an idea of what it would cost say over a 2 year period to pave every mile of road in FE? How much per acre would the approximate cost be? Not for FERWCD to do it, but if FERWCD were to go away how much would it cost? Thanks Mike. You deserve a raise, but can't have one.  Wink

 CoolBEING COOL IN A TOUGH SITUATION Cool

Many good questions are being discussed in this blog.  Fixing FE is not a lost cause, but it is certainly an uphill battle. As I have mentioned, the developers who built FE did not make the improvements that were normally included in a development of this magnitude.  This was the start of the "deferred capital improvement" problem that residents of the District inherit today. For many years the Board of Supervisors has tried to keep assessments super low, while making improvements at a sustainable pace.  They have been somewhat successful.  However, current conditions will no longer support the improvement of capital infrastructure at "no cost" to the landowners. 

All landowners have an investment in their homes or properties.  Protecting that investment requires improvements in the road and drainage infrastructure.  Largent45 asked what it would cost, to pave every mile of road in FE today, if FERWCD were to go away.  To pave every road, would require stabilization of road base, asphalt paving, intersection improvements, stormwater management, land acquisition and permits.  The following costs are estimated based on using contractor services for all work if we started today, finished by next year, and bonded the costs at 4.2% over a 20-year period:

 Shocked  ROAD STABILIZATION:                  $13,000,000
 Shocked  ASPHALT PAVING:                         $ 9,000,000
 Shocked  INTERSECTION IMPROVEMENTS:   $  2,500,000
 Shocked  STORMWATER MANAGEMENT:       $15,500,000
 Shocked  ENGINEERING SURVEY & PERMITS:$ 1,500,000
 Shocked  LAND ACQUISITION:                      $ 1,500,000
 Shocked  INTEREST:                                     $20,700,000

The cost to the landowners would be about $571 of additional assessment per acre of land per year.  Also, if FERWCD ceased to exist, the annual assessment for maintenance (currently $199 per acre per year) would be considerably higher.  A project of this magnitude would take at least 3 years to construct.  Four years from now, the work could be completed, but materials inflation in the construction industry will take a toll.  At the end of the project, $43,000,000 in present value improvements will cost about $49,300,000, and will create an assessment increase of about $660 per acre per year, plus the added cost of maintenance if FERWCD ceased to exist.
The problem is that there is no way to start the work today.  Permits for all the work will take at least a year, since a large-scale stormwater management system would be required.

The approach taken by the District over the past five years has been a more measured approach that attempts to use money from grants and the CRA Trust Fund.  In retrospect, relying on the CRA may have been a mistake.  However, there was no way to foresee property tax reform and its impact on the trust fund.  The trust fund may be available for funding projects several years down the road after the recession ends.  The worst thing the FE residents can do is to make no improvements at all.  If that happens, the bottom will likely fall out of the trust fund.  Also, grants will become less available because the District will not have the money to match the grants. 

The assessment proposal ($126 per acre per year) is a measured corrective approach, that could pave up to 15 miles of additional roads, make improvements to 28 intersections, and build Phase 1 of the Sixteen Mile Creek Stormwater Treatment Facility.  This proposal will likely keep the trust fund viable, and will provide some opportunity for legislative stormwater grants.  The proposal will reduce the wear and tear on dirt roads, will minimize erosion of sediment into the creek, and will help keep the FE residents compliant with Federal and State stormwater pollution rules.   

 HuhWHO'S TEARING UP THE ROADS AND CLOGGING DEEP CREEK? Huh

I finally got to drive down that section of Crotty, yesterday afternoon.
Didn't get stuck or even drive off the road, into the ditch.
Of course, I was driving about 20-25  MPH.
But I did notice the ATV tracks, spinning donuts and curves, that dosen't help!
Palatka Blvd is getting bad, but with no rain in sight, it'll get worse.
We'll see what improvments we can afford this year and go from there.
There may not be many....Walt

Of course you didn't get stuck or drive off the road, the grader recently scraped the soft stuff off.   Try driving through during heavy rain at night and hit that dirt ridge left on the shoulder by the grader and you just might end up in the ditch even at 10 mph.   Its an easy out to blame the ATV's for everything, my question is as stated before, why didn't they pave crotty to platka blvd as they did ebert, baylor and others?
 
ATVs, no doubt, cause a great deal of damage.  But so do school busses, 18-wheel trucks, and manufactured-home move-ons.  Operation of ATVs on public roads is against the law in St. Johns County.  Nobody is going to outlaw the operation of school busses, 18-wheel trucks, and manufactured-home move-ons.  Four-wheel drive trucks and cars also do their share of damage. 

When dirt roads become really sandy and soft, rain washes large quantities of dirt into the canals, which flow to Deep Creek.  This helps to clog Deep Creek, which helps to flood FE.  Getting after the erosion problem is a big part of the District's current paving and drainage program.

FE is not the only contributer of sediments to Deep Creek.  The agricultural and tree-farming industry have some responsibilty.  So does St. Johns County.  The Board of Supervisors does not control those organizations.  The District is working with these groups to ensure a fair share of the costs are passed on. 

 HuhWHO PAYS THE BILL? Huh

Thanks for the great reply Mike.

I am for the $40 assessment for 20 years. That is $800 that could prevent my home from being a TOTAL LOSS!

We have to face the fact that its time to PAY UP or SHUT UP! Open your wallet or close your mouth.

We MUST have Phase 1! Otherwise this community is driving on bald tires!

Question: Can't the other people who flow water through the creek pay this too and lower our assessment?

How will this issue be addressed at the landowners meeting?

Will the candidates be able to speak on this or any other issue?

I would vote for whoever can explain to me how this will be paid- because if it is not we are building sandcastles out here!

I for one am still FED UP! (Flagler Estates Drainage Ultimate Priority)

 Shocked Sad Angry

 
The District is currently working with landowners outside the District boundaries to come up with a contractual arrangement to collect money in return for the drainage benefits these landowners receive at the expense of the Flagler Estates landowners.  This is a significant portion of the Water Control Plan which will be presented in a public hearing to the landowners at the Annual meeting. 

The District is not counting on this money, because nothing has been agreed to yet.  If the District receives additional funds from outside landowners, it will help.  But, it won't cover the entire bill.  It will only cover the portion of the bill that can be attributed to the stormwater impacts from outside the District boundaries.

 HuhWHAT'S BEING PROPOSED?? Huh

We are still working on our proposal for the Capital Improvement Program based on a $126 increase in assessment.  District staff does not assume that $126 is a done deal, however, District staff needs to plan.  If the Board of Supervisors wants less improvements, then we'll scale back our proposed program accordingly.  For road paving (which is how this thread got started) staff is proposing that the following road segments get paved over the next 4 years:

Priority   Road Name   From   To   Length (LF)
1   Flagler Estates Blvd   West Deep Creek   Vaughn St   2145
2   Vaughn St   Flagler Estates Blvd   Melanie St   2407
3   Nikolich St   Cedar Ford Blvd   Jonathan St   4976
4   Allison St   Palatka Blvd   Jonathan St   2298
5   Isom Ave   Cedar Ford Blvd   Flagler Estates Blvd   9442
6   Guzman Ave   Flagler Estates Blvd   Cedar Ford Blvd   9443
7   Dillon Ave   Cedar Ford Blvd   Flagler Estates Blvd   9436
8   Palatka Blvd   Baylor   Kirchherr Ave   5873
9   Ebert Ave   Division St   Palatka Blvd   2610
10   Crotty Ave   Palatka Blvd   Division St   2570
11   Oliver    Flagler Estates Blvd   Melanie St   2413
12   Baylor Avenue   Palatka Blvd   Division St   2550
13   Ebert Ave   Palatka Blvd   Division St   2584
14   Crotty Ave   Cedar Ford Blvd   Division St   5240
15   Dillon Ave   Cedar Ford Blvd   Division St   5234
16   Guzman Ave   Cedar Ford Blvd   Division St   5253
17   Division Street   Baylor   Kirchherr Ave   4248
In addition, staff is proposing to build Sixteen Mile Creek SWTF Phase 1, and to make intersection improvemetns to 28 intersections.  I have attached a very rough draft of the proposed 10-year Capital Improvement program (Alternative B) which will be in front of the Board on Thursday.

Mike Kelter
mkelter@bellsouth.net
Report to moderator   Logged

 
pleeman
Senior Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 502


Flagler Estates-Country living with modern safety


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2008, 11:18:32 PM »

Once again a fine job of presenting the facts and the necessity behind them.
We are very lucky to have someone explain this to us.

Mike, what can we do as concerned citizens to help this 10 year proposal through?

Is it who we vote for on Saturday June 7?

Report to moderator   Logged
money8
Very Active Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 468


View Profile WWW
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2008, 07:51:42 AM »

Pleeman, The budget and assessment will be set by the present board on May 15,2008, and the newly elected board member will have little or no effect on it.
   The new board member or the incumbent will have be a good Steward of the budget for at least the next 3 years.
   There are some other things that need to be addressed while drainage is the #1 priority.
   We desperately need a county funded fire station,( look at the Daytona area as we speak)
   We need better parks and recreation for our young and older people.
   We need and expect better police protection.

  Yes, our assessment will be increased and I think that an increase is necessary,but it will will have to be structured in such a way that it has a minimum economic impact on us, there are a large number of residents who are on a disability or social security who can not afford a $100 plus hit at this time,any increase will have to in increments and spread over 5-10 years, now during this time what happens to the assessment for other needs? It will go up!! And after the time, that the incremental increase (5-10 years)  is fullfilled will it be reduced? I don't think so.
  I would implore every one to obtain a copy of the districts spread sheet of expenses every month and see where the money presently goes and what we get in return for it.
  One of the candidates has ask that if there are questions to e-mail him via private message, well if there are questions for me ,call me at home(386)326-0237 or stop me on the street, or come by the house, I live at 10130 McMahon Ave,and I am usually home in the evenings after 7:00,I prefer a one on one conversation.

  Bill Fisher
   
   
Report to moderator   Logged

 
cdas04
Average Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 95


View Profile WWW
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2008, 09:59:28 PM »

Bill,
Just want to clarify and maybe point out a few FACTS about your post above:

First a County funded firehouse?  The Flagler Estates Road and Water District has NO CONTROL OVER THIS!  If the residents want to come together and possibly get a VOLUNTEER firehouse, then, (and you have said it yourself,) Bobby Hall will talk to you, Also you saw that only 4 people  showed up for your volunteer firehouse meeting that sunday afternoon,  But as far as a county funded firehouse realistically don't see this happen for quite some time.

Second, Better Parks and Rec........The CRC members have been working very hard on this for the last 6 months.....and they are starting to see the fruits of their labor, however as you know Bill many times in the past Flagler Estates residents have been "told" that they were getting something and then to have that something"not" happen!  So you can understand why the CRC has been hesitant on "ANNOUNCING" this, but if some residents would show up at the meetings they would know what is going on.  hhhhmmmm, maybe a community center?

Third, need and expect better police presence........well as you may know this month is the 1 year anniversary of OUR NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH PROGRAM...The amount of suspicious calls has dramatically increased, while the number of burglaries has decreased.  I have seen more police presence in our area in the last 6 to 8 months then I have in the first two years of living here.  At the monthly meetings some were more productive then others, but I almost always saw a new face, and I have been able to meet some of the awesome people that live in our community and that truly care about what happens in our community, and they volunteer and do it with out needing their ego boosted!

As far as the assessment increase is concerned, I am not sure about the rest of the neighborhood, but I have a 30 year mortgage and do not plan on moving anytime soon.  The "STRUCTURE" that you speak of SHOULD HAVE ALREADY TAKEN PLACE........the board had been advised of what needed to happen years ago, read the engineer reports!  They adopted the capital improvement plan last year.....so why didn't they have the increment increases to support this capital improvement plan, planned out then???

 Also many residents are being mislead to believe that the current state of the economy is the reason for this large increase. 
 :'(Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but regardless of the state of the economy this increase was going to be presented to the BOS and the increase needs to happen.  Let me explain what will happen if this increase does not happen:  the millions of dollars you, (yes you) have spent on paving the 40 miles of roadways that we have paved will deteriorate to crumbling blacktop from not being maintained(remember the end of west deep creek) and the dirt roads will no longer be stabilized and the flooding will not only happen but will happen more often, because our drainage is not being maintained, so the large number of residents who are on a disability or social security you are so concerned about, will no longer have a home because it was flooded and they can't get out because no one will come in  and help any of us because of our "UNMAINTAINED ROADWAYS" 


Let me also say, I am not attacking you Bill, I am simply putting MY perception of how I see things in the big picture and also putting some FACTS out here as well. 

I am really concerned about the FACT that no residents ever show up at the Road and Water district meetings, but they are ready to show up this Thursday night and cause havoc, without knowing all of the FACTUAL information that surrounds this situation.  I just hope people are respectful and listen to what is being said.

 Also to be clear I am not placing blame on the board of supervisors or the district staff, all of us and yes I mean me too, are to blame for where we are today, because if you think about it, we "hired" elected the Board of Supervisors, then we never showed up at any of the meetings to "check in"  kinda of like Hiring someone to work for you in your own business then NEVER talking to them again.......  would you really do that in your own business?  The BOS did what they thought was in the best interest of the residents, after all there was never anyone there to tell them different!!

Thanks for listening,

Dana
« Last Edit: May 13, 2008, 10:08:57 PM by cdas04 » Report to moderator   Logged

 
pleeman
Senior Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 502


Flagler Estates-Country living with modern safety


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2008, 10:58:01 PM »

Thanks for more light on the subject Dana!

An informed FE is our only hope.

I sure hope we can get someone on the board of supervisors who can see the plans through...

Are you saying they are already paid for and going through? Or is this a vote Thursday night?

So many people get confused about the local government... How FERW is seperate from the CRA but still gets funding from it, which is over seen by the county which is overseen by the state which is overseen by the feds. And its a wonder anything gets done. Big money projects have to be scrutinized so the taxpayers know the money is spent wisely.

I get that feeling from Mike Kelters posts... There are no gold guard rails in FE!

Without roads we might as well be a campground!

 Angry Sad Angry

Report to moderator   Logged
money8
Very Active Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 468


View Profile WWW
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2008, 08:15:36 AM »

 Dana, Thank you for your input,if more people would respond and get involved things would be much better for all of us.
   1. Yes,you are correct, the board has NO control over the fire service but they can be influential in obtaining a maned fire station( a fire house is where the trucks are kept and bingo games are held).
   I would like to tell you that 3 out of 10 call for emergency help out of Station 8 in Hastings are in Flagler Estates.
  I have been told that as a result of my efforts to form a volunteer dept.that something is going to take place soon.
  Now, the county fire dept is going to become a M.S.T.U. (municable service taxing unit)this will be another add on to our taxes.
   The board must keep our commissioners,informed as to our wants and needs,We pay for services and get little our no return on our investment.
 

   I am aware of what has been taking place with the C.R.C. and applaud the effort and I hope that there are no more false promessis from the county. I think the district should have obtained the additional lot when they had the chance,but Walt had no support in his effort, here again there was no support from the residents( no one at the meeting).


   I also have seen a better responce time and more deputies from the sheriffs office,neighborhood watch does indeed work  so keep the phones ringing.
 Flagler Estates is the largest zone that law enforcement has in the county and has the least number of officers on duty at any given time.There is a need for a substation out here,and on duty officers dedicated to F.E. two can not work from the fairgrounds to the county line,and from the river to U.S.1 it's just too large an area.


 As for a structured plan on assessments we will need to ask the present board why this was not taken into consideration.

  The economy does and will continue to effect the C.R.C. trust fund,as the value of our homes declines so will the trust fund.

  West Deep Creek fell apart because of poor prepartion of the sub soil,and has been repaired correctly,I feel that all the roads should have been stabilized with millings,and driven on for 6-8 months (traffic does wonders as far as compacting the base),before any paving was done this would in my opinion,have shown where the weak spots were and corrective action taken before paving. And I don't care what color the guard rails are as long as they are there, I think that Palatka Blvd.needs rails the full length on the canal side, this is a tragedy waiting to happen.

   The Ashley out fall project is the key along with the cleaning of 16 mile creek to most of the flooding out here,this has been in the planning stages for a couple of years now and I would do and take what ever action necessary to get it started.The permitting process is a nightmare.

   As for motivating people to come to meetings,most have the just leave me alone attitude until it hits there wallet, then they squeal, this I do not understand. I have been to C.R.C. meeting in West St. Augustine and  there were 100-150 people there.And look how much progress they have made!!

  Bill Fisher

 
 

 
Report to moderator   Logged

 
cdas04
Average Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 95


View Profile WWW
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2008, 10:27:51 AM »

OK Bill, can you please stop confusing the people that are reading this.......you keep referring to the CRC in the post above, when I was talking about the Flagler Estates Road & Water District. 

The Flagler Estates Road and Water Control District is not Part of nor does it have anything to do with the CRC (the Community Redevelopment Committee).  So NO the state of the economy has nothing to do with the amount of increase we could be hit with, from the Road and Water District  The Flagler Estates Road & Water Control District is just what it is called and does what is in it's name......it controls the roads and water within our bondaries of the DISTRICT!

The state of the economy yes, will affect the CRC and the amount of monies going in to that fund because of the tax crisis going on. The CRC handles things to REDEVELOP the AREA, using the tax monies that the residents pay each and every year!

People need to realize that the Road & Water District and the Community Redevelopment committee ARE TWO SEPARATE ENTITIES.  One does not supplement the other!  The reason why the CRC voted to pay for Phase III paving, is because the communities infrastructure is part of the redevelopment plan. 
It was not to supplement the Road & Water controls districts budget.
Report to moderator   Logged

 
burrdrywall
Active Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 135


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2008, 01:45:47 AM »

FIX AMOS RD the nightmare the board has know about for years all land owners on amos have to give up an extra 6ft by 130ft per lot to allow for the ditch or else the road wont be wide enough. the ferd is going to make extra money by charging the tree farm. then they are going to take this money on the backs of the amos residents and do other projects. maybe its time for them to  buy or rent this extra property they use for free now that they found away to generate income. come on boys you can cut us in to we own the land. or maybe flagler estates should start at baylor and just dissolve amos out of the district. just thinking out loud  you would think we would pay lower taxes or something because our land is under an acre with their use. low taxes keep people quiet 
Report to moderator   Logged

jack
4wheelingbrat
New Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3


View Profile
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2008, 09:13:17 PM »

FIX AMOS RD the nightmare the board has know about for years all land owners on amos have to give up an extra 6ft by 130ft per lot to allow for the ditch or else the road wont be wide enough. the ferd is going to make extra money by charging the tree farm. then they are going to take this money on the backs of the amos residents and do other projects. maybe its time for them to  buy or rent this extra property they use for free now that they found away to generate income. come on boys you can cut us in to we own the land. or maybe flagler estates should start at baylor and just dissolve amos out of the district. just thinking out loud  you would think we would pay lower taxes or something because our land is under an acre with their use. low taxes keep people quiet 


I think you need to look at your tax bill.........you do pay lower taxes because your land is under an acre........assessment is $199.00 per acre,  for the landowners who fall under an acre because of the right of ways/ditches they only pay approximately $185.00. 
Report to moderator   Logged
BlaineDus
BlaineDusPL
New Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20


View Profile WWW
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2017, 09:40:41 AM »

– Раздевайся, – ты чуть призакрываешь кабинку и пристально смотришь как я буду это делать. Половина из них работала в инфракрасном спектре. Пизда была горячая и влажная. И теперь я степенная мать, примерная жена, как эта шалава, лежу на столе и меня грубо трахают какие-то мало знакомые мужики. Я набрался храбрости: – Как бы ты отнесся к тому, если бы я предложил свои услуги? Я просто кончил и залил все трусы своей спермой. Именно возможности вместе с кем-то засыпать и просыпаться. Его член уже был готов к боевым действиям. Вдруг ты шепотом сказала мне на ушко что к твоей попке прижался мужик стоящий сзади и что у него стоит и его хуй через брюки упирается прямо тебе между ягодиц. Лежа на парте учительница стонала и извивалась от того, что делал с ней ее ученик, предоставляя на всеобщее обозрение истекающее соками влагалище. Узкоглазые просто как обезьяны скачут всех достают, а кавказца те гордые, свысока на всех смотрят. Короче, место было выбрано замечательное. Я вновь почувствовала неутомимое желание овладеть ею. Алексей припал ртом к соску, не забывая теребить пальцами другой. Я сидел и думал, кому они нужны, эти собрания? "Звони, я сейчас приду", – бросила Жанна и вышла из ванной. – У тебя мания торчать под окнами? Добравшись кое-как до берега, благо озеро было небольшое, насквозь мокрые, мы бегом отправились к дому, ощущая, как холод сковывает руки, ноги и прочие части наших тел. Они успевают выстрелить до того, как проводник уходит. Но вот прошло 2 года, и одним теплым июньским деньком они снова встретились, теперь всё было иначе она стала девушкой, притом девушкой очень и очень привлекательной – среднего роста, всё так же натуральная блондинка, стройная, с красивыми ножками и великолепной фигурой, в её, всегда с легкой усмешкой и какой-то грустью одновременно, больших карих глазах было что-то такое, что привлекало и завораживало, в них скрывалось что-то такое чарующее, волшебное и таинственное, в её глаза можно было влюбиться и утонуть в их омуте. И больше не в силах терпеть, сын резко вставляет во влагалище тебе по самые яйца... Сестры расхохотались, а Алексей вынужден был с ними согласиться: действительно, эта философия способствовала их процветанию и, судя по всему, не противоречила внутреннему предрасположению обеих. Предки уже привыкли к нашим странноватым отношениям (мы дружили уже три года) и воспринимали всё как должное. вон из своего организма: мое лоно хлюпало от возбуждения: еще немного потеребив клитор я отключилась на секунды, получив сильный оргазм: все содрогалось: тело приходило в состояние покоя... Неуверенной походкой она вернулась на место и повернулась к креслу. – Извини, я думала, что вернусь до того как ты проснешься. Значит, мы все делали правильно Wink ) ) А Руслан Александрович, тем временем, стал с сумасшедшей скоростью двигаться взад-вперед, и моя голенькая попка быстро-быстро застучала по стене, к которой я была прижата. Через секунду еще одна и еще. 
стройная мамочка глубоко сасет видео порно тифани долл групповуха смотреть бесплатно отпидорили порно видео русское порно смотреть все фильмы с виоллой кастинг коуч порно бесплатное фото порево 18 порно две вишенки сайт порнуха в спортлагерях смотреть онлайн откровенные сцены в кино миньетсмотреть онлайн порно фильм русский дог бесплатно бдсм в маске порно фото бесплатные эротические фото жен киски девушек в большом виде кто из мировых звезд снимался в порно порно в казкрме смотреть частное порно с тайками секс со служащими 
Отец с матерью живут отдельно уже около двух лет. – Ирка подошла к окну и шторка закрыла мой вожделенный объект наблюдения... Много раз он пытался залезть в ее тумбочку, стоящую около кровати, но всякий раз она была закрыта. Где-то через минуту баба снова попросила внука закрыть кран и опять задышала через рот. Только куклу тебе еще заработать надо. Мой хуй стоял, как кол в предвшкушении того, что сейчас будет. Он уже переключился на вторую скорость движения, как волна оргазма сбила её долгожданным напором и от неё она опустила руки на диван и расслабилась.... Ловкие пальцы студентки знали своё дело, и до того момента, когда я успел что-либо сообразить, мои брюки и трусу валялись на полу, а мой напряжённый член уставился прямо в лицо Оли. Всё остальное выше всяких похвал. Я помню, что у меня уже тогда стоял как кол, хотя еще маленький. " Она опять принялась сосать член брата, а мужчины взяв свою одежду, удалились. Ольга встала рядом с Катей и начала ласкать пальцами ее клитор. Димка пристально смотрел на меня. Пальцы моей руки уже глубоко входили в неё. В этот момент, в дверь заглядывает полуобнаженная блондинка, в трусиках – стрингах красного цвета на персиковой попке, и в комбинации, из которой выпрыгивают упругие груди: – Мальчики, я тут услышала шум! Дядя Витя, – протянула Надя, – Иркин батька. – Ладно бабка, не сейчас, Есть по времени запас, За подсказочку спасибо! Игорь взял трубку, набрал 3 цифры. *** Ну вобще-то было принуждение в первый раз. Поскольку пены было столько, что абсолютно ничего не было видно, я согласилась и стянула купальник. Я сдернул с нее платье. 
порна дом2.ру отьебал жену друга в трусиках племянник трахает свою тетю смотреть онлаин порно видео жесть лесби секс видео смотреть классное трахнул в анал свою собственную пасию фото из мультиков ххх смотреть бесплатно эксгибиционистки за 30 лет фото девушки умеют трахать Сара грудастые сексуальные пальцами порно японки в чулках porno для мобильных скачать девушка снизу сосет секс между мужем и женой порно фильмы негр дерет азиаточку в анал износиловал пьяную родную маму на русском языке missy stonemissy stone с неграми женская порка фото
Report to moderator   Logged

[url=http://2701845.ru/%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BF%D1%8B/%D
BlaineDus
BlaineDusPL
New Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20


View Profile WWW
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2017, 09:41:13 AM »

Мне потребовались все силы, чтобы продолжать придавливать ее и одновременно вставлять член. Вот теперь меня точно убьют!!!!!! Покаталась я, наверное, еще с полчаса, потом мне надоело и мы пошли к Олегу домой. Лицо Оли излучало спокойствие и наслаждение. Еще есть возможность сделать вид, что ничего не было. Этим умным и опытным пальцам можно посвящать стихи, если бы во мне была бы хоть искорка таланта, то они – десять умелых и нетерпеливых, ласковых и нежных братьев, были бы обязательно воспеты в торжественном гимне. С тех пор мы стали гораздо более близкими друзьями и имели очень много забав со спортивной одеждой и друг с другом и даже объединили наши коллекции спортивной одежды. Я одновременно и дразнила его, и восхищалась им. Чем дольше Николай смотрел на ритмично вздымающиеся от дыхания груди, тем больше понимал, что если сегодня у него будет просто сказочная ночь. Что-то съел, что мне не пошло – ответил водитель. В конце концов, уж лучше пожить пока здесь, чем ежедневно терпеть несправедливость. Ты как тряпичная кукла. Ты понимаешь что ты поступил подло? Они были выполнены вместе с поясом, то есть это были как бы колготки, но спереди и сзади были большие прорези. Еще раз крутнемся у зеркала... Это были молодые парни, трое, они стояли там, курили и пили пиво из бутылок. Какова главная задача рыцаря белой розы? Кто обвинит ее в непотребстве? Тогда начал гладить эту обтянутую тканью попку и тискать ее ладошками. Вдруг Саня сказал: "Включи музыку, тихо только не разбуди всех, я люблю под музыку засыпать. – Ты вышла из ванны уже раздетой? Только поднесли ко рту – у неё зазвонил телефон. Я услышал тихий хлюпающий звук – было ясно, что мамочка была возбуждена не меньше, чем мы. Ну а ее блядские ножки и уж тем более пизду, смазывать не было никакого смысла. И я с Татьяной часто вспоминаем каждую встречу того незабываемого года. Сначала я не чувствовал её вкуса, т. " попыталась вскрикнуть Клэр, но Мэтт не дал ей договорить, обхватив губами ее рот. Упершись руками в мешки, полусогнутый, я стоял над мамой с членом, введенным наполовину в мамино влагалище. Я кивнула, достала нож и стала резать свою еду. Из него вылетела струя молочно-упругих капель... 
сказать порно бесплатно мобильная версия немецкий сабле порно черные чулки лесбиянки порно фото зрелая трахается с молодым баба трахоет мужика скачатьбесплатно как трахаю намасленные и оттраханные порно фильмы скачать торрент пррно без регестрацми и смс смотреть фильмы онлайн для взросрых бесплатно 21секс мужики дрочат хуй на ночь порно трое ебут блондинку трахнул пышку любительское анус в пизде обнаженная молодая блондинка порна фильм русские скрытая камера эротика хели бери 
– М-м-м – промычал Дан, разглядывая мою грудь – Very beautiful... я ее так любил, что мою грудь переполняла такая большая нежность, что сам себе я казался очень большим, очень сильным и, казалось, мою грудную клетку разорвет эта прекрасная любовь. Девушка (Мила ее звали как я услышал) начала тянуть за поводок к столу, но Аня начала сопротивляться и та ей начала очень сильно бить по щекам и она подчинилась. Осмелев еще больше, из-за того, что он думал, что она крепко спит, а так же потому что был слишком возбужден, чтобы о чем-то еще думать, он протянул и левую руку. С этого дня Виджай дрочил едва ли не двадцать четыре часа в сутки. Сел на край стола... Я помаленьку ее освободил от неестественной позы, нежно поцеловал и почти мгновенно заснул. Губы замирают на правом плече. Алик опускается на колени и видит, как отцовские руки кладут ремень и начинают расстёгивать штаны. Жанна села на край полочки, которая была в этом отсеке и стала расстегивать свою блузку, а затем подняв свою юбку до бедер, расставила свои восхитительные ножки и привлекла меня к себе. Я лежала почти голая, спортивные штаны лежали в сторонке и не могли намокнуть, но под ударом была вся постель. Он засмеялся и стал мочиться на тряпку. От моего внимания не ускользнуло, как расширились ее зрачки. но она не сделала ни какой попытки оторвать свои губы от моих. Я встал на вытянутые руки и начал подавать на него. Он выглядел очень неплохо, несмотря на прошедшие 20 лет. Когда водка иссякла, Леха попросил спирт, который как он знал, имеется у меня в приличных количествах. Серж достал коробочку из кармана и не открывая её попросил: – Разденься. Потом он попросил меня сесть ему на живот, и стал массировать мои бока, потом мои ляжки. Я все-таки была немного напряжена и когда его язык проникал внутрь, мне представлялось как туго должен входить туда его большой член. – Шлюха, похотливая продажная девка. – Я согласен с договором, мистер Тернер – произнес мужчина. Я отбросил его руку и продолжил движения. Но в юности я стала сильно интересоваться мужским полом. Актеры, оператор, осветитель, режиссер. Да и сам: пишет всё ей о Питенбургских балах, да о модах на vulgarite среди поэтического студенчества, когда и отсылаем был не в Питенбурх, а в Царёво Село, и поспевшая уж vulgarite у самой Натальенки очень волнуется каждую ночь по таким интересам студенчества! Я пошла в магазин. Выпив кофе девушки, переглянувшись, пошли в спальню. В пакете были: чулки, чёрные кружевные трусики и чёрный лифон, накладная грудь 3 размера (не знаю откуда он её взял), офигенная майка с рисунком, юбочка, парик чёрный и помада. 
xxx видеочат россия громадные пизды альбомы голых зрелых дам фото big ass bbw смотреть онлайн трахнул во все щели смотреть одну телку ебут толпой крупным планом лесби страпон взрослые и молодые смотреть видео как дрочат себе член старики смотреть порно мультики бесплатно без смс и регистрации жену трахнули с друзьями смотреть
Report to moderator   Logged

[url=http://2701845.ru/%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BF%D1%8B/%D
BlaineDus
BlaineDusPL
New Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20


View Profile WWW
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2017, 09:41:54 AM »

Только, чтобы не уснуть, нужно чем-то занять себя. Я чётко ощущала биение крови в клиторе и во влагалище, возбуждение наблюдающих за мной мужчин захлестнуло меня с головой. На меня смотрела девушка 26 лет... " – так она всегда начинала разговор. Так вот, сидим мы как-то в четверг после работы в офисе, пиво дуем, и планы строим, где денег взять. Облокотившись одной рукой о дерево, он принялся доставать свой член из штанов. " – "Или в попу. До её дома должно хватить. Отделано все дорого и со вкусом. ", – девочка мысленно ощутила свое превосходство над отставшей от жизни женщиной. Красивое лицо, аппетитные губы, в которые хочется впиться и никогда больше не отпускать. – Становись раком, сука! – Значит вы к дяде. Я вытащил из сумки приготовленный еще дома термос с кофе и бутерброды, и мы устроили импровизированный пикник. – А что ты думаешь он делал вчера ночью и скорее всего делает сейчас? На конец они прошли в комнату напоминающую театральную гримерную с костюмерной. Она поднялась и пошла за ним. Олег выбежал на кухню и принес оттуда батон колбасы. Твои мужественные скулы, какой кайф водить здоровенным елдаком по твоим щекам и скулам. Но нет, все было как обычно. И то, и другое, как ни смакуешь, а быстро кончается; и то и другое одинаково возбуждает и пьянит" Д. Худые руки с усилием перевернули её на живот. Она не могла больше держаться на ногах и потихоньку сползла вниз на траву, стоя на руках и коленях. – Ты так завелась. (Резко ответила она) – По этому начинай делать свое дело. войдя до конца он остановился... Иришка на боку, я за ней, ебу ее, Олег дает в рот нам по очереди. Я дотронулся к её влагалищу и почувствовал на руке липкую влагу. Возможно, она в шоке? 
загрузки порнуха порно галереи анальние хвостики смотреть порка девушек до крови порно ролики секси девочек смотреть секс большим пальцем смотреть онлайн бесплатно альбомы голых зрелых дам трахнуть огромные дойи видео дразнит пилотку перед камерой барт симпсон и мардж игра порно смотреть пикап секс за деньги порно онлайн анарексичек порно зрелых женщин в анал онлайн смотреть бесплатно фото море спермы на языке 
Через пять минут такой экзекуции она действительно могла бы кончить от того, что о её клитор потушат сигарету. Потом его сменил Микола. Я не буду сосать у Саши!!! Я хочу рассказать вам эту историю, которая случилась со мной семь лет назад. Нагнув голову, он зарылся в волосах на моей груди, сполз на живот, потом ниже. точнее приключается, хочу с вами посоветоватся как поступить. Это продолжалось минут пять, пока Георгий громко не пернул в лицо товарища. Подошла она ко мне, взяла меня за плечи и повела с собой. ", "я и не собирался! Пристальней взглянув на анус я еще явственней поняла, что это анус разъебанного петуха. Сама с собой, но вслух, во весь голос, я проклинала ручные коробки передач, автомобилистов, пробки и себя за брезгливость. Наверное, он думает, что самый умный здесь из всех! Он спокойно разделся, она выключила свет и легла с ним. От неожиданности девушка вскрикнула и ударила его коленкой в пах. Сомнения сразу ужалили его, как сотни пчел. Возвращался я из какой-то очередной командировки, даже не помню из какого города, то ли Ровно, то ли Львова, билет был купейный, полка верхняя. Ответила я и в под прыжку пошла раздеваться и наполнять ванну, неужели я наконец токи встречусь со своим сексуальным героем, я уже сгорала от нетерпения когда лежала в ванной, рисовала себе эротичные сцены и изображала разные позы которые открыла с Сашей. Мы часто резвилисьна заднем сидении: целовались, обнимались и болтали о жизни, но в этот раз у меня были немного иные планы. Мое возбуждение достигло предела и я решил освободить свой член из заточения в брюках. На ней был коротенький белый полупрозрачный халатик, подвязанный одним поясом. Том самом – древнем и воистину магическом. – Господин разрешит поприветствовать его? Вероятно, его унижение сильно порвало струны его души. Выпив две чашки, я похлопал себя по животу и, несмотря на уговоры покушать ещё что-нибудь, отправился во двор. Олеся Эдуардовна смягчилась: "Ладно, помогу тебе для первого раза. Теперь каждое его движение было мне отвратительно. 
телочки дрочат парню загрузки порнуха секс в 70 е годы типы женских влагалищ фото темперамент характер женщины испытывают порно игрушки samantha saint and britney amber фото видео неожиданых оргазмов баб скачать бесплатно короткие ролики для взрослых самый жесткий анальный порно кастинг секс по пьяни русское онлайн смотреть фильм порно сказку про красную шапочку 1990 годов мокрые пизденочки молодых девушек напоил бабушку снотворным и трахнул
Report to moderator   Logged

[url=http://2701845.ru/%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BF%D1%8B/%D
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  



Login with username, password and session length